At Last We Meet Again Bela Fleck Tone Youtube
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Tuneager - Posted - 02/04/2010: 21:xx:08
I am re-posting the link to the 1992 video and the 1992 NY Times Letter to identify this thread and information technology's comments back into context. After reading the NY Times Letter from 1992 by Marty Cutler, it simply resonated a chord in me equally to all the great players who were attempting Jazz earlier that 1992 letter was written, or that video recorded, and it does disappoint me that and then many great players haven't gotten the exposure for their efforts in Jazz directions before or since. I have my ain memories of that time too. My apologies to Marc Horowitz, my ignorance of his influence, hastily reading posts, and misplacing his name past thinking of the writer David Horowitz and/or pianist Vladimir Horowitz.
Bela Fleck video from 1992
banjohangout.org/myhangout/vid...p?id=4093
NY Times 1992 Alphabetic character
nytimes.com/1992/06/28/arts/l-...22&st=cse
Marty explained that his letter of the alphabet was printed and edited differently than what he wrote. The entire unedited letter of the alphabet would've probably explained his opinion better, as he does in after posts in this thread, just it's still in that location on the internet equally it stands.
So many jazz attempts before 1992, 4-string players aside, such as Larry McNeely (Slipped Disc), Vic Jordan (El Cumbanchero), Bill Knopf (lots of Jazz and Ragtime), Alan Munde, Marty Cutler, Gordon Stone (Scrapple from the Apple), Tony Trischka, Bill Keith, Bobby Thompson (Take 5), Fred Geiger, Pat Cloud, and probably many others that I am forgetting at the moment.
In that location's probably lots of others who could mention Jazz efforts that were going on back in that time, equally has been done somewhat in the postings that follow. My ain comments and perceptions of an edited NY Times Letter of the alphabet led this thread downwards a route which was the antithesis of music, my apologies to those who took offense.
Edited past - Texasbanjo on 03/08/2010 xv:37:59
BanjoJohnDavid - Posted - 02/04/2010: 21:46:07
That quote is xviii years erstwhile. It sounds like his comment was taken out of context.
CharlieVickers - Posted - 02/04/2010: 22:34:30
I am new to the banjo but I have already sensed that in that location is a certain element in the "banjo civilisation" that would get out of their manner to discredit Bela Fleck. Is it just because he doesn't devote all his fourth dimension to bluegrass? I've seen several comments on the web that seems to betoken in that direction. As someone new to this musical instrument I think it is phenominal what Bela does with the banjo. He is i of the reasons I am and then interested in learning to play this wonderful musical instrument. I believe he brings much credibility to this instrument and all who play information technology. Certainly he has broadened that group of music lovers who now include the banjo as ane of their favorite instruments and come across its potential with all types of music. I look forward to seeing his electric current African bout in March in Roanoke, Va. I applaud Bela for recognizing the African roots of the banjo and for having the foresight to bring what he found in Africa to the American audience. This is not the "bluegrass hut", information technology is the "banjohut".......which lends itself to a much broader spectrum of music.
banjo1930 - Posted - 02/05/2010: 00:00:56
Information technology must accept been taken out of context. Marty Cutler is besides an astonishing banjo player, and I am sure he wasn't trying to discredit Bela Fleck.
Banjowen - Posted - 02/05/2010: 01:11:nineteen
quote:
Originally posted by CharlieVickersI am new to the banjo just I take already sensed that in that location is a sure element in the "banjo civilisation" that would become out of their way to discredit Bela Fleck. Is it just because he doesn't devote all his time to bluegrass? I've seen several comments on the web that seems to signal in that direction. Equally someone new to this instrument I think it is phenominal what Bela does with the banjo. He is one of the reasons I am then interested in learning to play this wonderful instrument. I believe he brings much credibility to this instrument and all who play it. Certainly he has broadened that group of music lovers who now include the banjo as 1 of their favorite instruments and see its potential with all types of music. I look forward to seeing his current African tour in March in Roanoke, Va. I applaud Bela for recognizing the African roots of the banjo and for having the foresight to bring what he constitute in Africa to the American audience. This is not the "bluegrass hut", it is the "banjohut".......which lends itself to a much broader spectrum of music.
I completely concord, and so many people call up that a 5-string banjo was invented solely for playing bluegrass on, I'grand agape if thats all yous are meant to play on them I wouldn't accept bothered buying one,...and yes this is the "BANJO" Hangout and not the "BLUEGRASS" Hangout.
vtbanjoplayer - Posted - 02/05/2010: 04:36:twenty
People are very often trying to discredit Bela for not playing bluegrass, WTF?? This man is one of the nigh talented banjo players on the planet, and just because he does'nt devote all of his time to playing bluegrass that makes him an junior actor? Give me a break. If any of y'all who say he does'nt play bluegrass you demand to look a niggling further into his collection of recordings. On his "Daybreak" album and the album "The bluegrass sessions:Tales from the acoustic planet volume 2" at that place are some of the nigh astonishing bluegrass tunes to come off a banjo. Sure, all the traditional bluegrassers are what most people think about when the banjo comes to mind, but that does not mean that is the only style to play. To all the Bela haters out there open up your mind and heart to one unmarried person and his playing fashion that has well-nigh probable put a banjo in the hands of countless numbers of players out there. Don't be a "actor hater", y'all need to cover what he has done for the wonderful instrument that we all dearest: the banjo. Music is art, just because you don't understand information technology, does not hateful information technology is not a wonderful thing. If yous dislike Bela and his style, curb your marvel every time y'all are on "You tube" or whatever other site where y'all tin can see video and don't click on his video and don't listen to his music. But as musicians yous should exist able to put your dislike of him bated and recognize that he has brought an amazing corporeality of recognition to the banjo and the uncomplicated fact that he is an amazing player.
Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010: 05:03:32
quote:
Originally posted by banjo1930It must have been taken out of context. Marty Cutler is also an astonishing banjo player, and I am sure he wasn't trying to ignominy Bela Fleck.
Y'all are quite right. If Béla really said that, I bet he wishes he hadn't, and if words were put into his mouth (always possible in print media), I reckon he wishes he could accept seen and quashed that misquote earlier it went to print. Béla knows amend and he credits people quite generously. I know because I've worked with him and he credited me for capturing a live recording of him. Marty and Béla are friends and I've seen them together – getting on famously, with no bitterness or rivalry. I even recorded them both on the same night in a smoky dorsum room in an sometime Greenwich Village speakeasy. This is "in-family" stuff and a storm in a teapot, because local banjo gods like Marc Horowitz and Tony Trischka were showing Béla weird scales and jazzy licks back when he was a shy teenager; in fact, banjoist Marc Horowitz – Béla's mentor before Tony – used to indulge in all kinds of off-the-wall licks and jazzy scales. (He'south reformed and plays sometime-time music now, just with great flair and imagination I might add.) He would have shown Béla stuff from Tony Trischka, Roger Sprung (who coined the term "progressive bluegrass" in 1963), Nib Keith, Bobby Thompson, Jack Hicks, Alan Munde, Marty Cutler, himself et al., including crawling-up-the-neck diminished passages, dejection and jazz licks, everything that was around at the time. New York banjoists were doing it all back and then – taking all kinds of chances. All these guys had monstrous chops and many were probably iconoclastic by parochial bluegrass standards. They all had great senses of humor, a wealth of musical ethics, would try anything (new) that they could remember of, and that'south the rich, wildly eclectic banjo environs where Béla cut his eyeteeth. Béla's a New York player from day one. Marc did something infinitely more than of import though, and I got this from Marc himself; he gave a meandering teenage Béla Chip a form in FOGGY MOUNTAIN BANJO album tunes, 'Little Darlin' Pal of Mine', 'Groundspeed', 'Fireball Postal service' – yup, all of it – in order to footing him in a Scruggs right paw, which he wasn't paying attending to and didn't have yet . Béla wanted Marc to show him all the cool stuff Tony Trischka stuff especially, and Marc did his best to expose him to every wild banjo lick that he could, be he focused Béla on Scruggs, which nobody had washed up until that point. Béla, now exposed to so many banjo styles and licks by Horowitz, went onto get lessons with Tony in Brooklyn. Tony was state-of-the-art and was even getting bang-up ideas and licks from Marty Cutler, a melodic-Scruggs banjoist with a wicked imagination. These guys were all skilful friends and Béla had the best banjo teachers on the planet from the fourth dimension he was in high schoolhouse. And so I see Marty's point and sympathise why he stuck his neck out. Information technology's very old news at present, merely he was righteous and fair to send a letter of the alphabet to the New York Times editor, because he personally knew about Béla'south training (knew him) from a very young age. Marty would take known that Béla "knew ameliorate" than to brand a fuzzy argument similar that and actually mean it to be true. That'south my have on it, knowing all these characters. I'grand an one-time New Yorker (younger than these guys past a few years – haha) and New Yorkers like to take each other to task for saying unthinking or boneheaded things, fifty-fifty by fault. Practiced for Marty for putting things in proper context, whether Béla was misquoted or taken out of context or non. I once did sound for "Banjomania"at the Speakeasy in Greenwich Village, and it was all these NY players, Tony Trischka (who organized the outcome), Bill Keith, Marty Cutler, Buddy Wachter (4-cord - who stole the evidence), and Béla. Later I sent Béla a cassette of his segment of the evidence, recorded on a Sony Pro Walkman (no Dolby) at a low enough level so that in that location was zero baloney merely plenty of bespeak. Béla liked it and then much that he passed information technology onto Rounder, and I got a call from Nashville, a secretarial assistant request me if I yet had the "master" (cassette), that they were nether borderline and wanted information technology ASAP. I called Tony Trischka and asked if this was for real, and he said "yep", so I made a personal copy on the spot and overnighted the "chief" downward to Nashville. The rail Rounder used was of Béla fooling around and merging 'Garryowen' with 'Miss McLeod's' - called 'Did you Ever Meet Gary Owen, Uncle Joe', which plant its way onto Bela Fleck and Tony Trischka: Solo Banjo Works. Béla is a real gentleman and is generous with his praise for others. He credited me no less than three times in the album'south liner notes, writing: "Special cheers to Tom Hanway for capturing the moment." I'm glad I was on sound that night at the Speakeasy, that the equipment was working – sometimes y'all had to punch the amp for the monitor to get it to stop crackling – and could afford fresh batteries and Maxell UD-XLII cassettes for the Walkman! New Yorkers don't let silly or inaccurate stuff become by unchallenged. Again, Béla is pure gentleman who knows his banjo history and gives credit where credit is due. He's cited Horowitz and Trischka and many influences in other interviews. Marty Cutler is also a gentleman, an awesome banjo actor, and scrupulously honest and fair in his views. It's a tempest in a teapot really.
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/05/2010 05:15:fourteen
Tuneager - Posted - 02/05/2010: 05:12:42
I read the above post incorrectly and was thinking of David Horowitz
Edited past - Tuneager on 02/05/2010 13:27:32
Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010: 05:16:xvi
I'll laissez passer that onto him, similar right now!
Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010: 05:26:33
quote:
Originally posted past TuneagerHorowitz is not a banjo player, Tony Trischka was Bela's teacher, who best-selling MANY before Bela.
banjohangout.org/myhango...=0&styleID=0
nytimes.com/1992/06/28/a...y%22&st=csee
That could exist misconstrued as a personal set on on Horowitz - very unwise. Marc Horowitz taught Béla before Tony. You lot demand to cheque Béla's own recollection of the existent history, my friend, here out of Bélas own mouth, equally documented on PBS.
Béla spent years with Marc Horowitz, before Tony. Y'all just don't know it, just don't endeavor to rewrite the history please.
You're non maxim Béla doesn't know his own history are yous, or that y'all know it better than he? That would be very foolish. Become back and read Béla's own business relationship, here's the germane part, exposing your fiction:
"I was taking guitar lessons earlier I got my first banjo, and I was doing ameliorate with finger picking than flat-picking. One day I asked my guitar teacher if he could teach me some banjo. He said no, but that I should see a guy downtown named Eric Darwin. Eric taught me a lot of folk-sounding banjo things so eventually passed me on to Marker (sic, Marc) Horowitz, who was much more of a bluegrass player. Mark (sic) was an encyclopedia of every banjo lick anybody had ever done. He could play all of that chromatic style which was big at the fourth dimension. After a couple years with Marker (sic), I would brand a cassette of him playing, take it home and then learn it over the week. I asked for a lot of Tony Trishka stuff and he had to learn more of that. I would go there and he'd just barely have information technology. So I started studying with Tony Trishka. Here I am taking lessons from maybe the all-time modern banjo role player that'due south always been. He just turned information technology upside down. I was very fortunate and I was voracious, simply soaking it upwards."
"Horowitz is not a banjo player" - you say? Not according to Béla Fleck! You're just winging it here.
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 03/10/2010 20:05:49
Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010: 05:34:53
Don't put words in my oral cavity.
Previous post deleted by affiche between these 2. I should have quoted it because he said that I made the inaccurate statement (that he actually made) below. Pure nonsense.
Re-read what I'grand maxim.
You said this: "Horowitz is not a banjo thespian, Tony Trischka was Bela's instructor, who acknowledged MANY before Bela."
What's up with that? That's inchoate and sounds like a personal set on to me. I didn't say it, you lot did.
Go to the link higher up, in my previous post. Everybody get there and see what Béla himself said. This is not some theory. Béla sites Horowitz in plain english language. Geesh!
LMAO
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/05/2010 07:00:45
Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010: 05:48:00
quote:
Originally posted by Tuneagerbanjohangout.org/myhango...=0&styleID=0 1992
nytimes.com/1992/06/28/a...ay%22&st=cse 1992
Estimate what, these are dead links now, check 'em.
quote:
Originally posted by TuneagerHorowitz is not a banjo player, Tony Trischka was Bela's teacher, who acknowledged MANY before Bela.
banjohangout.org/myhango...=0&styleID=0
nytimes.com/1992/06/28/a...y%22&st=csee
That could be misconstrued as a personal assail on Horowitz - very unwise. Marc Horowitz taught Béla earlier Tony. You need to bank check Béla'due south ain recollection of the real history, my friend, here out of Bélas own oral fissure, as documented on PBS.
Béla spent years with Marc Horowitz, earlier Tony. You just don't know it, but don't attempt to rewrite the history please.
You're non maxim Béla doesn't know his own history are you, or that you know it better than he? That would be very foolish. Get back and read Béla's ain account, hither'south the germane part, exposing your fiction:
"I was taking guitar lessons earlier I got my first banjo, and I was doing better with finger picking than apartment-picking. One day I asked my guitar teacher if he could teach me some banjo. He said no, but that I should come across a guy downtown named Eric Darwin. Eric taught me a lot of folk-sounding banjo things then eventually passed me on to Mark (sic, Marc) Horowitz, who was much more of a bluegrass actor. Marker (sic) was an encyclopedia of every banjo lick anybody had ever done. He could play all of that chromatic manner which was big at the time. Later a couple years with Mark (sic), I would make a cassette of him playing, take it home and so acquire it over the week. I asked for a lot of Tony Trishka stuff and he had to learn more of that. I would get there and he'd but barely have it. So I started studying with Tony Trishka. Hither I am taking lessons from maybe the all-time modern banjo actor that's ever been. He merely turned it upside down. I was very fortunate and I was voracious, simply soaking information technology upward."
"Horowitz is not a banjo player" - you say? Non according to Béla Bit! You're merely winging it here.
This is getting empty-headed. I'm making valid points simply they're not being replied to, just links, over and over (that don't even work).
Read this folks about Netiquette ... and not-and so-good Netiquette:
theonion.com/content/stance/o..._reasoned
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 03/10/2010 20:07:58
Tuneager - Posted - 02/05/2010: 06:10:29
I read your post incorrectly and was thinking of David Horowitz.
Edited by - Tuneager on 02/05/2010 12:54:20
Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010: 06:38:22
quote:
Originally posted past TuneagerHorowitz is not a banjo thespian, Tony Trischka was Bela'southward teacher, who acknowledged MANY before Bela.
Marc Horowitz has been given the caput's up virtually your remark almost him and about this thread. 
Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010: 06:44:44
Folks please re-read what Béla says about Marc Horowitz, but scroll up, a real person, banjo player and corking teacher - one who taught Béla a lot of stuff earlier he went to Tony Trischka years later.
I wrote this earlier, but it bears repeating, given the nature of the links, I at present see:
New Yorkers don't let silly or inaccurate stuff go by unchallenged. Again, Béla is pure admirer who knows his banjo history and gives credit where credit is due. He's cited Horowitz and Trischka and many influences in other interviews. Marty Cutler is also a gentleman, an awesome banjo role player, and scrupulously honest and fair in his views. Information technology's a tempest in a teapot really.
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/05/2010 06:45:45
Banjowen - Posted - 02/05/2010: 07:08:35
January'southward Banjo Newsletter gives y'all loads of information on Marc Horowitz equally well every bit Bela'southward views on him.
Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010: 07:11:33
Here's what Béla says, in the interview as documented for PBS:
"Yes, that's what I really liked almost beingness able to be 1 of the outset to integrate the banjo, an African instrument. Nosotros try to bring the banjo back to jazz. It is a fun idea, but we need some black banjo players. That is how I experience about it. In the early 1900's the banjo was used in Louis Armstrong'due south music where it was strictly strumming. Later it was replaced by guitar, which would then be amplified to compete with a drum kit, a trumpet etc. Yous can run across how the chords were used in early jazz music. It is interesting that it went away completely. Just I think there's a place for it in jazz. The problem is that well-nigh black people won't pick the banjo because they think it'due south the music of whites, but it isn't. Information technology is their instrument."
Béla is erudite on the topic, non looking for a reaction but telling it like information technology is (or was), citing a real conversation with Earl.
"I think it is very ironic that most people think that the banjo is a southern white instrument. It came from Africa and even for the first years that white people played banjo they would put on blackface. The heyday of the banjo was in the1800'southward when suddenly it was the most exciting musical instrument in the globe and everybody wanted to play it-- kind of like the guitar was in America in the1960'south. Just it's funny that bluegrass comes from when the banjo was way over the hill. There were a lot of banjos around from when it was popular. I asked Earl the other twenty-four hour period, "Were you very aware of all that music coming out in the1800's when the banjo was so pop?" And he said, "No we but heard what was on the radio, and in that location were a lot of banjos in people's closets."
This is Béla's own recollections and view on the history of jazz on the banjo, not somebody else putting words into his rima oris.
And so let's not make hasty or reckless inferences about Béla (or any other banjo players) based on partial or biased information.
Scooter Muse - Posted - 02/05/2010: 07:xix:01
quote:
"I was taking guitar lessons before I got my first banjo, and I was doing better with finger picking than flat-picking. One twenty-four hours I asked my guitar teacher if he could teach me some banjo. He said no, simply that I should see a guy downtown named Eric Darwin. Eric taught me a lot of folk-sounding banjo things then eventually passed me on to Mark Horowitz, who was much more than of a bluegrass player. Mark was an encyclopedia of every banjo lick anybody had ever done. He could play all of that chromatic style which was big at the fourth dimension. After a couple years with Mark, I would make a cassette of him playing, take it domicile and and then learn it over the week. I asked for a lot of Tony Trishka stuff and he had to learn more than of that. I would get at that place and he'd merely barely accept information technology. So I started studying with Tony Trishka. Here I am taking lessons from maybe the best modern banjo actor that's always been. He just turned it upside down. I was very fortunate and I was voracious, just soaking it up."
Hang in in that location Tom -- I know its frusrating sometimes when the actual facts just can't seem to enter into someones thinking -- oh well.....
Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010: 07:33:33
quote:
Originally posted by sctrmsquote:
"I was taking guitar lessons before I got my offset banjo, and I was doing better with finger picking than flat-picking. 1 day I asked my guitar teacher if he could teach me some banjo. He said no, but that I should see a guy downtown named Eric Darwin. Eric taught me a lot of folk-sounding banjo things then eventually passed me on to Mark Horowitz, who was much more of a bluegrass player. Marking was an encyclopedia of every banjo lick anybody had ever done. He could play all of that chromatic style which was big at the time. Afterward a couple years with Mark, I would make a cassette of him playing, take it home and and so learn it over the week. I asked for a lot of Tony Trishka stuff and he had to larn more than of that. I would get there and he'd merely barely have it. And then I started studying with Tony Trishka. Here I am taking lessons from mayhap the all-time modern banjo player that's e'er been. He merely turned it upside down. I was very fortunate and I was voracious, just soaking it up."
Hang in at that place Tom -- I know its frusrating sometimes when the bodily facts merely tin can't seem to enter into someones thinking -- oh well.....
Holy guacamole ... no kidding! We tin all learn about non having an "axe to grind" (for anybody). Threads can exist so tranparent, and when that happens it's upsetting, especially to see people stuck in a property pattern.
BHO reminds me of Twilight Zone sometimes. Monomania is a terrible thing to see in a thread, when it happens. Let's not get at that place ... okay? And if we are most to go there, allow'due south land this doomed flight earlier it crashes and burns. Live long and prosper and all that jazz.... 
quote:
Originally posted past BanjowenJanuary'southward Banjo Newsletter gives you loads of information on Marc Horowitz besides every bit Bela'southward views on him.
Absurd. Thanks Owen. Nice ane.
I hate to see Pat Cloud bashing (hint hint). And I hate to see Béla Fleck bashing just as much, or anybody else for that thing.
Practise equally you will, if it harm none.
Don't mess with New York banjo players. We watch each other's backs ... every fourth dimension. Haha! 
Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010: 09:00:01
quote:
Originally posted by TuneagerThe quote was secondary. I merely wanted to post video from that same period.
The dates of the Video and NY Times letter just brutal in line.
Definitely banjo should be played whatever style that anyone wishes.
I just wanted to certificate the offset instance of "Jazz" banjo playing. [Emphasis added]
This terminal sentence seems a thinly veiled reference to a perceived historical inaccuracy. The tone is sarcastic and would seem to belie the thing-of-fact neutrality of the first 2 sentences, refering to historical catamenia ("that same menstruum").
Upon reading these two post-obit statements, mashed together inexplicably, well-nigh (A) Horowitz (not existence a banjo role player) and (B) Trischka (acknowledging jazz banjoists), something becomes painfully clear.
"Horowitz is non a banjo thespian..." is a bald assertion, a mistruth that is not explained - just a bald exclamation by the affiche. There is an agenda here.
Does the affiche want us to infer that Béla is not regarding Horowitz equally a jazz banjo player? Possibly? It'due south hard to tell and it'south an inaccurate statement in whatever case. It would be unfair to put words in Béla's mouth, though he does refer to Horowitz as a "chromatic" thespian.
Béla would never come out and say that Horowitz is not a banjo role player and he never said that; only the poster himself said that. Hmmm....
In whatever instance, it would make no sense for Béla to say that since he cites Horowitz every bit his first teacher, someone whose playing he used to record every week and take home to larn. That was before Tony Trischka came into the picture (for Béla). And Marty Cutler.
Now is where more than innuendo comes. Read this quote:
"Tony Trischka was Bela's teacher, who acknowledged MANY earlier Bela."
So at present we have a Tony v. Béla scenario (who are great friends by the style), where Tony is painted as "acknowledging MANY (jazz banjoists we may assume) earlier Béla; whereas, Béla's video is glibly cited by the poster who states that he "simply wanted to document the first instance of 'Jazz' banjo playing." Baloney! Information technology's a set up-upward.
Then the NY Times letter would so seem to support the affiche'southward view, which he hedges about, while resorting to sarcasm nonetheless.
This is an apparent jab at Béla, inchoately expressed only clearly implied through the use of sarcasm (peradventure with the intent of making a laugh of him) and the Marty Cutler letter, which was written nearly two decades agone.
I scent Béla bashing, but not very gutsy or well-reasoned bashing (non past Marty). This is rubbish and maybe meant to undermine his status. I view it as a veiled personal attack on Béla. I'grand non impressed. Arguing by innuendo is the pits!
Edited by - Tom Hanway on 02/05/2010 09:57:34
martycutler - Posted - 02/05/2010: 09:05:22
Hi all,
I wanted to accept a few minutes to answer to this thread. This is most definitely a "storm in a teapot". Equally some have suspected, though, all is not quite right with my letter to the Times; in editing for brevity, Béla'south quote—and my letter of the alphabet—were both distorted.
Béla and I are old friends; back in the day, we'd substitution gigs or sit down in with our respective bands. When I auditioned for Tasty Licks, in early '77, I put Jack Tottle in bear on with Béla, after I decided that Boston winters weren't for me.
In my letter to the Times, I took great pains to express my adoration for Béla's accomplishments, that we were friends, and that I thought that their edits distorted Béla's intent. In editing my letter, they distorted my intent, also. I phoned the Times and asked that they print a correction of my alphabetic character, which, of course they refused to practice. I besides spoke with Béla, who called me a few days after the letter'due south publication to inquire if we were okay. I read him what I initially sent, and all was fine.
As Tom Hanway points out, I was in no way trying to demean Bela's stature equally a musician; I was, withal, trying to cast a fiddling light on the equally groundbreaking work of others who preceded Béla.
Best to all,
Marty
martycutler - Posted - 02/05/2010: 09:xv:19
As for the question of Marc (non Mark) Horowitz and his credentials as a banjoist and teacher, please see my interview in the January event of Banjo Newsletter. Marc has had a long and storied professional career; for years, he was one of the top studio banjo players in New York, and he was an influential teacher for Béla and many others. Marc plays lots more clawhammer mode these days, merely his new Huber five-string may however lure him back to bluegrass.
Best,
Marty
Edited past - martycutler on 02/05/2010 09:30:08
martycutler - Posted - 02/05/2010: 09:35:39
I just wanted to add that anyone familiar with my piece of work over the years probably knows that I am no purist regarding banjo or music in general.
Marty
pearcemusic - Posted - 02/05/2010: 09:45:53
quote:
Originally posted by martycutlerI just wanted to add together that anyone familiar with my work over the years probably knows that I am no purist regarding banjo or music in general.
Marty
really ?? ...
I thought you lot were one of those "if information technology ain't midi .. it ain't Earl" kind of guys !!
seriously, cheers to all of you who had "boots on the ground" during those early on days ...
allusion and partial truths are so easy to blurt out .... hard to accept back ... even when old posts are deleted.
cheers Marty, for setting the tape straight, and for chiming in.
p.south. can't wait to hear Marc'southward response to this ..... should be interesting
Edited by - pearcemusic on 02/05/2010 09:49:40
martycutler - Posted - 02/05/2010: x:21:48
A perfect instance of how this stuff gets out of paw:
"I should see a guy downtown named Eric Darwin. Eric taught me a lot of folk-sounding banjo things then eventually passed me on to Marker Horowitz,"
Undoubtedly, this refers to the late Erik Darling, who succeeded Pete Seeger in the Weavers, and not Eric Darwin, who may or may not have existed.
Marty
Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010: 10:27:34
Thanks Marty. No better human to shed light on this than the ane whose old alphabetic character - garbled and distorted by the NY Times - is beingness used unfairly, also given that Béla also was quoted out of context, his views also distorted by the Times, who made no apology and did not redress the situation for you or Béla.
So now it's used as armament, but it'southward a dud, as from a toy pellet gun. Kid stuff.
Folks, you may ask yourselves, why would somebody make the post-obit exclamation,
"The quote was secondary. I just wanted to mail video from that same period.
The dates of the Video and NY Times letter just cruel in line..."
only to conclude with this sarcastic zinger:
"I just wanted to document the kickoff instance of 'Jazz' banjo playing."?
Call back about it.
Edited past - Tom Hanway on 02/05/2010 10:31:00
Scooter Muse - Posted - 02/05/2010: 11:11:xix
......and somewhere in the distance...a dog barked.....
The End
martycutler - Posted - 02/05/2010: 11:43:27
quote:
Originally posted by Tom HanwayThanks Marty. No better man to shed calorie-free on this than the one whose old letter - garbled and distorted by the NY Times - is beingness used unfairly, too given that Béla too was quoted out of context, his views too distorted by the Times, who made no amends and did not redress the situation for yous or Béla.
At the time, Béla was studying with Billy Novick, a tremendously talented saxophone role player. Béla'south intent was to state that there was no formal jazz pedagogy for five-string banjo—which was true enough. Somehow the Times deleted plenty of his interview to make it sound every bit if he was the first five-cord banjo role player to tackle jazz.
If anyone is attempting to ignominy Bela as a Jazz musician or banjoist—bluegrass or otherwise, they won't get any ammunition from me. Bela cooks, menses—and any assertion to the contrary is merely so much hot air.
Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/05/2010: 11:50:59
Well clarified. I'yard ever skeptical of posters who hide behind screen names.
Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/05/2010: 12:21:54
Hey, Marty, good to encounter y'all here, homeboy. I enjoyed that BNL article.
After reading this thread, I wonder whether the annotate "Horowitz is not a banjo player" contains a mistake. I often read my own carefully written posts, simply to detect that I've left out an entire word. Perchance tuneager meant to type "Horowitz is not a jazz banjo player"?
martycutler - Posted - 02/05/2010: 12:41:27
quote:
Originally posted past Ira GitlinHey, Marty, skilful to see yous here, homeboy. I enjoyed that BNL article.
After reading this thread, I wonder whether the annotate "Horowitz is not a banjo player" contains a mistake. I often read my own carefully written posts, simply to detect that I've left out an entire discussion. Mayhap tuneager meant to type "Horowitz is not a jazz banjo thespian"?
Likewise, Ira; actually good to encounter y'all hither.
I have no axe to grind with tuneager; information technology is because of his contact that I found my former and disastrously edited letter to the Times coming dorsum to seize with teeth my posterior, so I'm grateful for the opportunity to articulate this mess up. I do hope that his post was a typographical oversight, because there is no room for whatsoever kind of sniping in such a small neighborhood. There are so many great players coming out of the woodwork these days, and information technology's more important to appreciate personal voice than a pigeonhole.
All-time,
Marty
Tuneager - Posted - 02/05/2010: 12:59:41
quote:
Originally posted by martycutlerquote:
Originally posted by Ira GitlinHey, Marty, good to see you lot hither, homeboy. I enjoyed that BNL article.
Later reading this thread, I wonder whether the annotate "Horowitz is not a banjo player" contains a mistake. I often read my own carefully written posts, just to observe that I've left out an entire give-and-take. Perhaps tuneager meant to blazon "Horowitz is not a jazz banjo role player"?
Likewise, Ira; actually skillful to see you here.
I have no axe to grind with tuneager; it is considering of his contact that I found my sometime and disastrously edited letter to the Times coming dorsum to bite my posterior, and so I'm grateful for the opportunity to clear this mess up. I practise hope that his post was a typographical oversight, because there is no room for any kind of sniping in such a small-scale neighborhood. At that place are so many great players coming out of the woodwork these days, and information technology'southward more important to appreciate personal phonation than a pigeonhole.
Best,
Marty
And I'm glad to meet old errors rectified. I misread the reference to Horowitz, and was thinking David Horowitz the writer, and Vladimir Samoylovich Horowitz the pianist.
Edited by - Tuneager on 02/05/2010 13:fourteen:04
martycutler - Posted - 02/05/2010: 13:07:54
quote:
Originally posted by Tuneagerquote:
Originally posted by martycutlerquote:
Originally posted by Ira GitlinHey, Marty, good to meet y'all here, homeboy. I enjoyed that BNL article.
After reading this thread, I wonder whether the comment "Horowitz is not a banjo role player" contains a mistake. I often read my ain carefully written posts, only to discover that I've left out an entire word. Perhaps tuneager meant to type "Horowitz is non a jazz banjo player"?
Likewise, Ira; really good to meet yous here.
I have no axe to grind with tuneager; it is because of his contact that I found my old and disastrously edited letter to the Times coming dorsum to bite my posterior, then I'm grateful for the opportunity to articulate this mess upwardly. I practice promise that his post was a typographical oversight, because there is no room for any kind of sniping in such a small neighborhood. There are so many great players coming out of the woodwork these days, and it's more than important to capeesh personal voice than a pigeonhole.
Best,
Marty
And I'm glad to come across sometime errors rectified. I misread the reference to Horowitz, and was thinking David Horowitz the writer.
Especially funny, when you consider that Marc Horowitz has a blood brother David, who is arguably the get-go person to play synthesizer in a jazz context. David played in the Gil Evans Orchestra for a time, and went on to record with the Tony Williams Lifetime in the '70s.
Marty
Tuneager - Posted - 02/05/2010: 13:14:51
And.............Vladimir Samoylovich Horowitz the pianist.
Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010: eighteen:05:33
Good riddance to that bad idea and the thread topic too, which you lot likewise "Deleted". Swing and a miss.
Sourdough Pickens - Posted - 02/05/2010: 18:28:thirty
quote:
Originally posted past Bill RogersWell clarified. I'k e'er skeptical of posters who hide behind screen names.
I'll continue that in heed....
Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/05/2010: 21:05:45
No worries Slim, nosotros know where you live. (joke)
Okay for a harrowing anecdote about Marty and Béla shredding on a tune together, demonstrating their camaraderie in a hostile surroundings, please go to this thread, which reminds the states that artistic license and artistic control is part and bundle to self respect and exploration in the face of dubious doubters. Blessings to Pat Cloud, who is the master protagonist of this thread, willingly or unwillingly.
banjohangout.org/topic/164830/iv
arnie fleischer - Posted - 02/06/2010: ten:12:22
quote:
Originally posted by martycutlerA perfect example of how this stuff gets out of hand:
"I should run across a guy downtown named Eric Darwin. Eric taught me a lot of folk-sounding banjo things so eventually passed me on to Mark Horowitz,"
Undoubtedly, this refers to the late Erik Darling, who succeeded Pete Seeger in the Weavers, and non Eric Darwin, who may or may not have existed.
Marty
Eric Darwin (b. 1925) was a bang-up-great-grandson of the famous naturalist, Charles Darwin. He is an unsung (not to mention unplayed) figure in the folk revival that took hold in New York City during the late 1950s and early 1960s. He did, in fact, live "downtown," in the Chelsea Hotel on Manhattan's Westward 23rd Street. There he encountered, and, according to those in the know, influenced, however fleetingly, a number of musicians who went on to achieve fame in a variety of genres, from folk to bluegrass, pop to jazz. For case, fable has it that Petula Clark'due south monster 1960's striking "Downtown" was inspired by a risk meeting with Eric at his lower Manhattan digs. And several reliable sources have told me that Eric loved, simply was ultimately frustrated by, the v-string banjo. They claim that jazz cracking Dave Brubeck got the idea for what is arguably his best-known composition afterwards hearing Eric's unlikely, banjo-inspired musical collaboration with the comedian Henny Youngman, "Have (My) Five . . . Please."
Tuneager - Posted - 02/06/2010: xix:09:13
I regret that posting, and I do not want to re-initiate that contend, but later on reading the NY Times Letter from 1992 past Marty Cutler information technology simply resonated a chord in me as to all the groovy players who were attempting jazz earlier that 1992 alphabetic character was written, and it does disappoint me that and then many great players haven't gotten the exposure for their efforts in the jazz direction. Alibi my misplaced passion.
My ain passion about the matter caused me to hastily read the mail service nigh Marc Horowitz and make a stupid conclusion thinking instead of the writer David Horowitz and pianist Vladimir Horowitz, likewise every bit state my opinions not too kindly.
So many jazz attempts before 1992, Larry McNeely (Slipped Disc), Vic Jordan (El Cumbanchero), Nib Knopf (lots of jazz and Ragtime), Alan Munde, Marty Cutler, Gordon Rock (Scrapple from the Apple tree), Pat Deject, Tony Trischka, Pecker Keith, Bobby Thompson (Have v), Fred Geiger, and probably many others that I am forgetting at the moment.
My own passion was stated stupidly, when I read Marty Cutler's letter from 1992 information technology merely
fired up that flame inside me. Marty explained that his alphabetic character was printed and edited contrary to what he wrote. The entire letter would've probably explained his opinion better, but it'south even so there on the net every bit information technology stands.
For example, just i of the swell players who seems to never be mentioned much in regards to jazz either though he was tabbing out many Jazz archetype tunes in BNL going dorsum to the early 1980's and probably before.
Fred Geiger:
youtube.com/watch?5=wdRE3l9KfA...e=related Heartaches
youtube.com/watch?5=Y8Yo92JYGQ...east=related Entertainer
My mistake, my own interest in this subject goes mode back and then many great players have been eclipsed and never given credit where credit is due. There's probably lots of others who could mention Jazz efforts that were going on back in that time, as has been washed somewhat in the postings above. My own perception of an edited NY Times Letter aside, my apologies for my own misplaced words or intentions.
Edited by - Tuneager on 02/06/2010 22:thirteen:40
martycutler - Posted - 02/06/2010: 19:59:06
quote:
Originally posted by TuneagerI regret that posting, and I practise not want to re-initiate that debate, merely after reading the NY Times Letter of the alphabet from 1992 by Marty Cutler information technology simply resonated a chord in me as to all the dandy players who were attempting jazz earlier that 1992 letter was written, and information technology does disappoint me that and then many great players haven't gotten the exposure for their efforts in the jazz direction. Alibi my misplaced passion.
Snip...
My own passion was stated stupidly, when I read Marty Cutler'due south letter of the alphabet from 1992 it just
fired up that flame inside me. Marty explained that his letter was printed and edited contrary to what he wrote. The entire letter would've probably explained his opinion ameliorate, just information technology'southward nevertheless there on the cyberspace as it stands.Snip Again.
Well, my letter was not edited to be "opposite" to what I wrote; My motivations were not all that dissimilar from those y'all state here. Similar you, I was upset about the probability that and so many great players would be marginalized in the mainstream press for want of a piddling fact-checking.
As e'er, the faceless nature of text over the Cyberspace can go far easier for conversations to stray, get out of hand, and become contentious. My poorly edited letter (albeit, not my edit) started this fracas, then perchance the lesson here for all of us is to cull our words more carefully when we post... or they'll come up back and bite you lot in the ass years from at present.
Thanks for the opportunity to articulate this thing up. What was the original thread here anyway?
Best,
Marty
Tuneager - Posted - 02/06/2010: 22:04:36
The original thread was based on a video from 1992 and my connecting it with that letter from 1992, which I will choose wisely non to rehash. I retrieve I'll re-edit once again, more generically "The Origins of Jazz on the Banjo", or something to that event.
Edited by - Tuneager on 02/06/2010 22:07:40
NYCJazz - Posted - 02/07/2010: 07:57:16
"Origins of Jazz Banjo?"
Tony & Bela?
I there almost 70 years missing in this story?
Tuneager - Posted - 02/07/2010: 09:35:40
Yes, the reason for trying to re-state this thread.
Many players over the years from four-string to five-cord.
salvatone - Posted - 02/07/2010: ten:52:56
When I think of "jazz methods," I call up of books or schools that teach jazz in a certain way. When y'all search Amazon, there are 12 jazz guitar method books on the first of a number of pages. When you search banjo you get i.
There were many bang-up five cord banjo players playing jazz in Scruggs and melodic styles from the beginning. Certainly, Don Reno was i. I remember Roger Sprung playing Farewell Bye Blues when I was first learning also. Eddie Adcock was another. But I never saw whatsoever cloth on how to exercise information technology.
There are a number of books now, including Pat Cloud'southward and Janet Davis' scale volume, that could be called "jazz methods." But I don't non recall any from the seventies. I would be interested to know if others might know of 5 string jazz banjo methods or material from that time.
Tuneager - Posted - 02/07/2010: 20:53:33
Tom Hanway - Posted - 02/07/2010: 21:nineteen:49
Yeah, we love Pat. Got information technology!
Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/08/2010: 06:34:01
quote:
Originally posted by salvatoneIn that location were many great five string banjo players playing jazz in Scruggs and melodic styles from the beginning. Certainly, Don Reno was ane. I recollect Roger Sprung playing Good day Bye Blues when I was beginning learning also. Eddie Adcock was another.
I think we need to brand a distinction hither between playing jazz per se--as Bela and Pat do--and playing repertoire derived from jazz--as Don, Eddie, and Roger have done--within a bluegrass context.
tubaphone - Posted - 02/08/2010: 07:43:14
Well, this is all very interesting.
First, cheers to my friends Tom Hanway and Marty Cutler for their vociferous support. I don't know who "Tuneager" is, merely my advice to him is "bank check facts before opening mouth". I only want folks to know that I feel that my greatest contribution equally a musician and teacher is to have had ANYTHING to practise with the career of Bela Flake, whom I consider to be the near eclectic, audacious and accomplished musician I've ever known. Find I said "musician", not simply "banjo player". Bela's artistry transcends the musical instrument he has called (some say It chose HIM) to brand his proper noun with. As a composer, player, leader, arranger and producer he has been a highly visible creative person excelling in multiple genres for decades, and has amassed a body of piece of work that is staggering in its telescopic and depth. Something like ten Grammy awards and many other accolades attest to his successful career, but one demand but have a working set of ears to realize that Bela is unsurpassed in expressing his musical ideas in whatever idiom. Anyone who chooses to engage in Bela-bashing is either jealous, deaf or lacking in taste.
Bela is still a young man. I await his next musical take chances with rapturous anticipation, know that I'll be thrilled and delighted with whatever he offers us.
Marc Horowitz ( not Mark, not David)
salvatone - Posted - 02/08/2010: 08:27:37
Originally posted by Ira Gitlin:
I think we need to make a stardom here between playing jazz per se--as Bela and Pat do--and playing repertoire derived from jazz--as Don, Eddie, and Roger have done--within a bluegrass context.
_________________________
Ira- You make a very interesting point here. Information technology also takes this topic in some other direction. Bluegrass includes a lot of improvisation merely I tin can encounter the distinction you are making. How do nosotros define "playing jazz?"
pearcemusic - Posted - 02/08/2010: 08:34:47
thanks for adding to this thread, Marc.
WE appreciate your input into Bela'southward musicality as well .....
agreeing with everything you've said virtually Bela, this comes to mind:
"what part of this isn't obvious to those who listen with an open mind?
and
"life must be lonely at the acme"
ISN'T Offset HAND INFO WONDERFUL?
cheers once again
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